1. To Breed or Not to Breed Transcript

[RENAY] Hey, hello and welcome to the first episode of That’s when you get a dog.  The podcast BOW FOW by old women for old women.

As this is the first episode I feel I should introduce myself.  I’m Renay, you’re host extraordinaire, I like a cheeky cider every now and then and I have a dog named Ronnie, he’s 3 and a half .  each episode I’ll give you a little ronnie fact, today I’ll start you off with the fact that he’s a TV addict and he loves a good crime drama but enough about Ronnie.    

Despite the title and the ronnie facts, this isn’t actually a show about dogs, That’s When You Get A Dog is a  series about women and some of the key things we think about or at least are forced to think about because, you know, we live in a patriarchal society.  Each episode we will drop our anchor in one key area and hear stories from those who have first hand experience or an interesting opinion on the issue.

Now it’s time to dive in and drop our first anchor.  To breed or not to breed that is the question.

Kids are a weird topic for me, I mostly hate seeing them out and about as I find them pretty disgusting.

I’m at that age where I constantly get asked about what I’m doing kidwise and its starting to come up more and more in conversations with friends so i figured let us hear from some women in the thick of kid life and not in it.

First up, Julia, a project manager from west london, who to traditionalists is living the marital dream.  I asked julia where she stood on breed or no breed line.

[JULIA] I actually was quite vehemently against it for a long time. I met my now husband when I was 23. He took the best years of my life, I don't know. I know it's a real cliche but it's this thing that happens to women when you hit 30, it is something that suddenly kicks in.  It might have been something to do with the fact that I was with this guy for 10 years and it almost felt like it was a natural move forward. We've been together we traveled together live together. It was brilliant. We, you know,  we’re still very much in love. And it just suddenly felt right that he was the one and I suddenly thought actually maybe I do want to do this.

[RENAY] So she’s breeder, or at least she became one.

[JULIA] We'd had the conversation before quite a few years ago, I had friends who had broken up after a long time with the boy because suddenly they found out he didn't want kids and I didn't want to have that happen to me. I sort of  said to him, “listen I don't know if I want them but I need to know what your stance is because if it's a no, definitely no, then I have to think about things.”  So we kind of grew together in that way and we both got to the point where we both were ready

[RENAY] Hang on, let’s roll that back a second, even though at the time she was unsure, Julia had the conversation to see if they were on the same page.  Very smart, I’ve heard a lot of stories where people assume they want the same things only to find out years later to assume makes an ass of you and me.

[JULIA] So we’d been together about 11 10 11 years by the time we got married and after honeymoon we'd said OK well let's try.

So I came off the pill and didn't get periods back, they always say it takes a while but they didn't come back at all. 16 years I've been on the pill. Never had a break.  So I thought, at first, it was my body sort of trying to come to terms with not being on it but I knew something was wrong and they kept pushing me and saying no you’ve got to be trying for a year and I was like, “listen I know there's something not right with my body, I'm not getting periods. I just know. So after pushing them after a year I finally managed to go to the doctor and get diagnosed.

Turns out I have PCOS which is polycystic ovaries and it was when I found out that I had polycystic ovaries and that it would actually be quite difficult for me to get pregnant.  It was Then I realized how much I wanted it.

[RENAY] According to NHS.uk three main features of PCOS are irregular periods, excess androgen, which is high levels of male hormones in the body and polycystic ovaries where your ovaries become enlarged and contain fluid filled sacs that surround the eggs.  

PCOS is thought to be very common affecting one in five women and most of the women affected don’t have symptoms.

[JULIA] I don't know how much people know about it, some women ovulate really sporadically some women have constant periods. I literally do not at all unless I'm given drugs .I don't even like once a year. Nothing. So it was a very strong case of actually this wouldn't happen for us.  There were a lot of tears about it all. And the emotional reaction I had to it made me realize how much I actually did want it.

It was five six months of going through the process of finding the right medication, tablets called Chlomide which are the go to tablets really for people who like with my condition to help you ovulate.  It's a lot of back and forth from clinics. It's a lot of being prodded and poked in areas that women are well be used to being prodded and poked.  And then they walk you through the steps of saying we’ll give you six months of this drug and if that doesn't work they give you injections to help you ovulate. then what they do is they get you man to give his sample and then they give you a trigger shot and a trigger shot makes the egg actually kind of pop and ovulate so they can time that. And when they can time that they put the man's sperm as close to the egg coming out as possible to give it. The biggest chance for the egg and the sperm to meet.  And they do that. I don't know how long they give you for that maybe. I mean might be another six months I think that was another six months of that. And if that didn't work then you go on to IVF.

It was very much a secret between two like we didn't really talk about it with people too much Alex, my husband, and I very much talked about what we could do if it didn't happen. looked at our options and we're thinking listen there are so many kids out there who need a good home, it is something that we would potentially look into.  we didn't know about the whole surrogacy thing because the whole point was I wasn't ovulating so that wouldn't have worked anyway.  I mean you know you have these options of him giving his sperm and getting someone else's egg ‘cause obviously I could carry a child, all the other bits of me were actually very healthy but we never talked about that. We have our own or we adopt.

Every month I didn't get pregnant with the drug. I just could see this packet of drugs depleting bit by bit. Knowing that I only had three months left of this or two months left of it.  Then really, you know, we go into the injection stage.

I was trying to keep as healthy as possible.  I wasn't drinking. I was trying to be uber healthy taking all the pre-conception vitamins and everything.  Then every month for three months, tablets were working I was getting my period and I was like damn it hasn't worked again. On the fourth month of my tablets I decided to go for acupuncture fertility.  I had such bad stomach cramps. and I was about two or three days late.

I'm never like clockwork because of my PCOS so I didn't think anything of it.  it was a Sunday morning, Alex was still asleep in bed and I got up and I was like oh you know I've got pregnancy test in the draw I just try it a few days late and was brushing my teeth. I kind of looked to the test and it said pregnant. I was like oh my god I wake Alex up by waving the stick in his face. Yeah.

[RENAY] Fortunately Julia’s story has a happy ending and she got pregnant and you’ll be happy to know that she gave birth to a little girl.  But Julia’s story proves you should always be careful when asking couples that typical question… “So when’s the baby coming” because you have no idea what is going on behind closed doors.  It’s definitely something I’ll keep in mind.

But back to reality for a lot of us in naughteens, what if you don’t have a husband, partner, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend or companion?

Enter Janna, an international development worker from New Zealand but living in London.  What’s Janna doing?

[JANNA] I'm basically going to find a donor sperm either in the UK or Denmark.  Hopefully I can have a fairly natural insemination rather than having to do IVF.

[RENAY] Okay, so I googled Insemination so you don’t have to and according to Wikipedia Insemination is the deliberate introduction of sperm into a female animal or plant for the purpose of impregnating or fertilizing the female for sexual reproduction. The sperm is introduced into the uterus of a mammal or the oviduct of an oviparous (egg-laying) animal.

But hmmm that sounds a bit like that was what a zoo would do so I looked elsewhereNHS.uk pointed me to the human procedure called IUI, Intrauterine insemination (IUI) a fertility treatment that involves placing sperm inside a woman’s uterus to facilitate fertilization. So basically the same thing but they say woman.

It’s always interesting to know whether people who have kids or want kids always felt that way.

[JANNA] There was a point in my early 20s when I went off the idea but mum convinced me that I should  because she always said that later in life her greatest joys came from her kids. So I think that kind of brought me back home to thinking that I would really like to be a mother.

I feel like if you don't have kids don't hang out with too many people with kids, I love children but they can be quite alone when they're not your own. I find them quite intense. You get a bit sick of them but  when it's your own I think you feel better or you just get used to them. That sounds terrible doesn’t it.

[RENAY] Ha I 100% agree here, this should be a rule.  I also always tell people who want kids to get a dog first haha.  So how long have you wanted to be a mother Janna?

[JANNA] I've wanted it for quite a few years but I just haven't met someone. I used to live in Papua New Guinea and a lady there once said to me that her niece was always waiting for someone but that person never came. She was in her 40s and she regretted that she had never had a child so she put the idea in my head, that it is possible to do it by yourself. I always hope that that wouldn't be what would have to happen. But I just haven't met someone.

I don't think I've given up on love. I suppose love can happen at different times of your life. And right now it's not happening.  People with kids still meet and fall in love so I haven't given up on love.  But I'm practical. Not everyone gets the happy ending, it comes in lots of different forms and at different times and there's different types of happy endings.

So I told mum probably a year and a half or two years ago that I would probably look to have a sperm donor. And she was just onboard with it straight away. She told all of her friends and she even told our family doctor and I was like Mom why are you doing this. And she said Oh I just don't want them to get a fright when you come home pregnant and partnerless, she said I'm just preparing them. So I thought that was hilarious and really supportive.  London is a bit of a bubble so people are quite open minded here. I think almost everyone I've told has been really supportive.  So I'm not ashamed.

[RENAY] You go girl, just imagine a fly black girl magic gif there when you heard me say that and then it will sound a lot better.

[JANNA] I'm now 35 and 36 and a few weeks. And I just think if I don't do it now it might get harder. I'm ready for the next stage of my life. I still enjoy going out and having fun but I'm just ready.  I also don't want to be too old when the child gets old. So I would like to do it sooner rather than later.

I want to get a full health check before I get pregnant. Get a MRI just to check there isn’t any cancer in my body. It's a bit paranoid but my mom recently passed away and I, it does scare me to think. If a child anytime before 30 I think it's really really hard if that happens to a child and you're the primary caregiver.   My biggest fear is that because it's just me. If something happens to me and if I get sick or die or something I worry about them and who would be there for them.  Like I do have family and friends. But that's a lot to ask.  It's really important to set up those networks and have the child feel a part of a bigger community and family.

I have thought about adoption and I think in a perfect world that would be what I should do. I think, potentially a bit of a selfish choice in that I do want to experience being pregnant and giving birth even the thought giving birth terrifies me. But I think it's something about seeing my grandma and my mom, feeling that parts of them are also going to come through, so I think it's about carrying that line on.  

I'm really lucky and unlucky, my mum got really sick and I had to look after for a few years and get emotional and she passed away about four months ago  But it makes me makes me really lucky because she also left me some money and helped me to buy a house. So that gives me kind of the security that I can do this by myself. So I think I'm really lucky in that regard.

[RENAY] So this is something i’ve thought about a lot as I’ve lived abroad and I also still want to escape the UK, although, you know, BREXIt.  When you’re not from a country but you have a baby there, do you plan n raising it in your new home?

[JANNA] I'm really unsure if I will raise my child in the UK for the rest of my life.  I'm really happy in London right now and I really want to be here for the foreseeable future. But another good thing of why I would do this by myself is if I was with an English guy and we break up I'd almost be forced to stay in the UK because the father would need access to the child.  I work in international development so I can take a child and live in different places. I could move back to New Zealand with the child.  Doing it by myself gives me more freedom.

I'm quite near the beginning of the process there’s a lot to find out. I've been searching different donor profiles and getting a feel for it.

I want someone with really high emotional intelligence because I it's really important. The sperm banks they often have some kind of personality tests, you get back pictures of them as a baby. Their height, their eye color, ethnicity any medical problems from up to the grandparents.  You don’t get a picture of them as an adult. There’s often an audio interview or a handwritten note it explains a bit about themselves, it's quite good. I mean I would love a picture of them as an adult but I understand it's too much to ask.

I've read some places say that. You should get a child who's the same ethnicity or look as you because it will help the child feel more maybe more settled,maybe more part of your family unit. So I probably will get you know a donor who's probably more similar to me, I've looked at quite a few profiles, there's definitely a few I like, it's really hard.

[RENAY] Knowing how important it is for a child to feel they belong and comfortable with who they are, something that would play on your mind is when do you tell them?

[JANNA] Right from a young age I would say that I wanted you so much that I went to a sperm bank and someone very nice and generous donated part of you and I wanted you so much that I went in and made you for myself.

I hope I have a lovely child who I just adore. I feel really complete to my family. I'm really excited about getting to know this new person that comes into my life and I really want to go on adventures might be too much but I like the idea of maternity leave going and spending a few months somewhere and you know hanging out with the child and having people come to visit and just enjoying that time. But I'm just yeah I'm really looking forward to seeing this person grow up. Just having someone that brings me joy for the rest of my life.

[RENAY] Yes Janna, what a woman.  Can’t wait to check back in with her later down the line.  

So Janna is going it alone but have you heard of co-parenting?  Pretty sure you would have, couples with children usually do this when they separate, it basically means sharing custody and having equal roles in the child’s life. But. Have you heard of Platonic parenting?  No, you say…interesting.  So platonic parenting basically mean two people, not in a sexual relationship raising a child,  They could have teamed up specifically for the task or in some cases relationships have dissolved and the parents simply raise their child together as friends just like the term co-parenting really.

[LAUREN] I think if women are interested and men are interested in being parents it's definitely available.

You know, men can hire surrogates. Women can get sperm from sperm banks. Now there's even a website like modamily.com, where you can find co-parenting partners, you can find sperm donors. People are getting more creative and the world is shifting and evolving and there are options.

[RENAY] That’s the voice of Los Angeles based Lauren Brimm, mother, author and sexual coach.  Yep, she’s a mother.  Here’s how

[LAUREN] Around when I turned 30, I was living in Paris at the time, I had moved there and just had all the experiences I wanted in my life except meeting a partner.  And I was trying to do that and dating and I just felt like you know I'm ready to start a family. There was nothing left in my life I wanted to postpone children for, I really knew that then.

I think I also had just the confidence in myself, I knew my mother would be involved and I think a lot of people they push back because they want more financial security. I knew, you know, friends and family would sort of step up. So like I can do it.

There was some sadness that I had done everything that I was supposed to do to meet a man and I'd done all this personal work and put myself out there time and time again.  And I definitely had this fantasy to of meeting a guy, just it hadn't happened and I realized I just need to do this on my own and stop waiting.

I had been talking with him years before, I was at UCLA and was taking a gender studies class and learned about gestational surrogacy.

[RENAY] Yes gestational surrogacy, another one for google… what would we do without google.  So gestational surrogacy means the woman carrying the baby has no biological ties to the child, So I guess this is what Kim and Kanye have done.

Back to Lauren

[LAUREN] I randomly was talking with him about it and his response I could never have seen coming

[MAN] “I'm actually doing that myself.”

[LAUREN] Then I filed that away in my brain moved to Europe and when I came back I had the thought. “I wonder if he's done that yet. I wonder if he still wants a child.” I  asked him about it. He had picked the egg donor he picked the surrogate, he was signing the papers with the lawyer. So he was really ready.

[RENAY] So she’s found the guy in the right mindset but how do you start ‘that’ chat?

[LAUREN] The conversation began with me saying what's happening with that surrogacy thing.  I never came right out and said well we should make a baby together. It just sort of was there in the space between us.

We met and we just started talking about children and our lives and relationships that hadn't worked out. He didn't want children at all until he turned 40 and he said he woke up and went

[MAN] “oh my gosh I want to be a father”

[LAUREN] And so we just talked about all of that and then we started talking about healthcare and spirituality and religion and realised that we were better aligned on a lot of things which is important.  The conversation just kept evolving. We talked on the phone a lot. We met in person and finally we decided to go for it.

[RENAY] So it’s on but as you’re not together, I imagine a lot of planning has to take place before and during the pregnancy?

[LAUREN] Definitely looked at a contract when I was pregnant and kind of went back and forth. The attorney gives it to you because it has things in it you wouldn't think to put in it. The issue is it doesn't hold weight in court. So you go to court and the judge can turn the whole thing on its head. You know as far as how you outline custody and things like that and the other thing is until you have a child. They're just words. They don't really mean that much to you. You don't even understand what a 1 year old is or a year old is or a three year old so you know you draw up something to kind of have a sense of what your schedule is going to be like and what your values are.  Probably talked about things more than the average couple of them who just says we love each other and let's make a baby.

[RENAY] And if you’re not together, you’d be with other people, how does that all work?  We’re all thinking it.

[LAUREN] I've been in two relationships since my daughter was born.  And I'll tell him if I've gone through a breakup and that I'm sad or whatnot. And with him I've asked him about dating and he maybe dates a little bit, it has been a part of the conversation. You know what. What happens if one of us gets married or if we don't like the the partner and there's a lot of unknowns,  so many unknowns.  But that's how life is. You have to trust that you've picked a good person with strong morals.

If you read the research on fertility it will light a fire under your bum. I don't have till I'm 50.   I I'm so happy I had my daughter. The way the way that I did.   Just go out there and look at the options and be open.  You know you don't have to give up on a relationship you have a baby, I think that was one of my biggest fears. I was like oh my gosh is my dating life over or have I given up on love and relationship and all these dreams that I also have and what I found was that was a myth.

When you step out of the box you really see that there are so many possibilities. There's all this freedom and creativity and possibility and it's really a phenomenal journey.

[RENAY] The formidable Lauren Brimm, her book The New American Family is a available to buy now.

We’ve heard from those who have and want kids, but what if that’s not the path for you?    Enter Cass, audio extraordinaire from London.

[CASS] I can honestly say that I've never felt any kind of emotional attachment to wanting a baby or to wanting to raise a child into a like an adult or anything to a point where I've never even thought about it.

[RENAY] There has actually been a theme in the women I’ve interviewed, most, have at one point never wanted a child.  

[CASS] It had never registered in something that I even saw in my life at all.  You know when you just can't picture something you just can't picture something as you look into your future at the  things that you want, children was never one of those things I could see for myself.

[RENAY] Cass is extremely sure of her decision, I wanted to know what she thought about women who say it all changed when they his 30.  Julia actually said that’s when she realised she wanted kids.

[CASS] When I hit 30 I just kept it moving.  Because I'm 36 now.  And that's another reason why I think I'm not that fussed about ageing because I don't want children. Ageing has been nothing but me.  I'm thinking about my biological clock I'm thinking of oh my gosh I'm going to turn out some kids and it's pushing kids out right now because it's not a factor. So I hit the you know just like OK what do I want to achieve on my own on track. Did that kind of reflexive things usually do for breath anyway and just kept continuing on with those things.

[RENAY] A woman not wanting a child can be very hard for people to understand, I’m not entirely sure why?  There can be a lot of misunderstanding and judgements made.

[CASS] I think some of the misconceptions people have about those who choose to be childfree is that they don't like children and that is not always the case. Actually there are lots of women that do like children and play active role in the lives of children.  If you just look at someone like Oprah she's not a mother but she's played a really important role in a lot of young people's lives. So it's a misconception that someone that chooses not to have children doesn't like children or that they will change their mind at some point.

One of my favourite things to hear is always, Oh if you meet the right guy and you’ll change your mind you want kids then. And I'm just like well you know given that my standpoint is quite strong if he's right for me then we should have the same view on this. Not that he would come along be so amazing. I'll just want to then have kids. It doesn't work like that. I think you have to be in alignment with whoever you choose to be with. And for me the right man would be like on the same page as me about.

I don't have a partner at the moment but I don't feel like that has impacted my choice.

[RENAY] Another thing you here is that your life is incomplete without children, I absolutely think this is wrong.

[CASS] That's one of the things that really bugs me when people say that they don't think that someone without children can live a full happy life or they don't know what love really is or you know all that sort of stuff.

You absolutely can.  I think it's a dangerous viewpoint to have as well because what you're saying is we're a woman without children has no value. I mean not even just for those that choose not to have children but there are women who biologically can't have them. And if we keep pushing this message that motherhood equals value then that is even harder for people that can't have the kids it's they have nothing to give to the world and I don’t think that’s true at all.

[RENAY] I have heard people say they don’t want kids due to overpopulation and things like that so I wondered if that played a part.

[CASS] My choice to be childfree is not particularly political. I mean there are some that argue that there's a lot of kids and the world is overcrowded and why do we need to add to that or whatever that is sort of true because for every person that doesn't have children someone will have and someone will have multiple. I think my choice to not have children isn't exactly making a dent in the population.the people that feel like me are probably in the minority.

[RENAY] Do you have any words for people who may be tempted to say something stupid to a woman who doesn’t have kids or want them.

[CASS]  think one of the most helpful things you can do or one of the most helpful things you can avoid doing is trying to project onto those people.  At the end of the day. What you're saying to that person is that they don't know their mind and if you think about it in the reverse you never speak to someone who is adamant about children and you never ask them if they're sure.  But when it's the other way around when someone says they don't want children then you get this bombardment of people saying Oh but you change your mind.

It can be one of two things where people kind of project it one that they think it's something everyone should do because they're ridiculously happy and they want everyone to feel that and to it's something that they maybe sometimes feel like a burden and they want everyone to be in the same boat. And it's just like whether it's one or two. It's just like at the end of the day your choices your choice. And people should respect that and stop asking questions about stuff that's not their business.

[RENAY] So there you have it episode one done and having listened to the women I’ve decided to not have kids.  Okay I’m joking, I’m not telling you what my plans are because it’s private.  That was something that came up throughout.  Having children is not as simple as it seems and there are lots of elements at play, which could be at that very moment you decide to be intrusive, causing that woman a lot of emotional pain.

To breed or not to breed is something that comes with being a woman, but in an attempt to be the change we want to see in the world let’s not be part of the problem.

Next time we’ll be talking owning a home and whether we should just throw in the towel now.

That’s When you get a Dog please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, preferably good ones although I’m fully aware my voice has no base to it.  Subscribe and the show is available on all you fave podcast apps. You can follow me on @GetAdogpod and @renayrich on Twitter for all show news and we do have a hashtag #GetADogPod, use it to join the conversation.

Thanks to Julia, Janna, Lauren and Brimm for sharing their stories with us.

That’s when you get a dog is produced by me, Renay Richardson and artwork is by Adam Cohen.  

See you on the flip side. Byeeee